Prioritize player taunts over Companion taunts?

Avran_Sylt · January 23

I run a Tank/DPS hybrid, and when I joined a group to do a multi-boss World Boss (Frontier's Cradle), I tried to group all four together. However it seemed that for whatever reason I just couldn't hold aggro long at all, even spamming a taunt (leashing soul).

I assume this was from other players companions being used as tanks also having a taunt slotted. (Who then ran around, pulling the bosses apart by dragging them roll-dodging, and later died)

It'd kinda be nice if player taunt's wouldn't be overwritten by companion taunts, with player taunts able to override companion taunts.

Although I'm not entirely sure about that world-boss's mechanics, maybe they just don't want you to group those bosses up due to AoE damage being optimal.

Erickson9610 · January 23

I agree that player taunts should take priority over Companion taunts. Players tend to know more about how to play the tank role than Companions do.

SolarRune · January 23

I was told by more knowledgable players than myself that player taunts are prioritised over companion taunts. Are you sure there wasn't another player tank? I was doing some wb stuff the other day on my tank and had the same issue until I realised there was another tank in another group.

Taril · January 23

Theoretically, this should already be the case.

Since every Companion taunt skill has the caveat "Used when the enemy is not already taunted"

Meaning they shouldn't be applying the taunt if one already exists on the target.

While overwriting taunts is a thing, you can overwrite any taunt (Player or Companion) up until a target gets Taunt immunity (Which is after 5 taunts IIRC).

If Companions are taunting a target you've already taunted, then this should be considered a bug and reported.

SolarRune · January 23

Is there a difference with the soft taunts from things like chains etc?

Avran_Sylt · January 23

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree that player taunts should take priority over Companion taunts. Players tend to know more about how to play the tank role than Companions do.

SolarRune wrote: »

I was told by more knowledgable players than myself that player taunts are prioritised over companion taunts. Are you sure there wasn't another player tank? I was doing some wb stuff the other day on my tank and had the same issue until I realised there was another tank in another group.

Taril wrote: »

Theoretically, this should already be the case.

Since every Companion taunt skill has the caveat "Used when the enemy is not already taunted"

Meaning they shouldn't be applying the taunt if one already exists on the target.

While overwriting taunts is a thing, you can overwrite any taunt (Player or Companion) up until a target gets Taunt immunity (Which is after 5 taunts IIRC).

If Companions are taunting a target you've already taunted, then this should be considered a bug and reported.

A possibility with no clear understanding from the group finder. I was the only one with a role designated as tank (with everyone else as DPS slotted for the WB)

That being said it's a possibility the ZoS designers might put some anti-tank adjacency effects, for some reason. (For a multi-target boss)

.

SolarRune wrote: »

Is there a difference with the soft taunts from things like chains etc?

I'm not sure what you mean by chains CC. All chains in the game (aside from rushing agony which I don't consider an active cast) are the same kind of chain CC.

possibly it's a bug with a companion overriding a player taunt, but will need further testing,

AcadianPaladin · January 24

I use a tank companion and fight lots of WBs. When no tank is around my companion gains and holds taunt perfectly. If a real player tank shows up, their taunts seems to overrule my companion's taunt - which is a good thing. I've never seen my tank companion interfere with a real tank's ability to taunt and hold a boss. And I've never had a real tank complain about my companion tank. My understanding is that is baked into the companion taunts just so they can't interfere with real tanks - thank goodness.

Avran_Sylt · January 24

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I use a tank companion and fight lots of WBs. When no tank is around my companion gains and holds taunt perfectly. If a real player tank shows up, their taunts seems to overrule my companion's taunt - which is a good thing. I've never seen my tank companion interfere with a real tank's ability to taunt and hold a boss. And I've never had a real tank complain about my companion tank. My understanding is that is baked into the companion taunts just so they can't interfere with real tanks - thank goodness.

Probably then an anti-grouping mechanic on that fight. Odd. Thanks for the clarity!

Dagoth_Rac · January 24

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

A possibility with no clear understanding from the group finder. I was the only one with a role designated as tank (with everyone else as DPS slotted for the WB)

Are you friends with the people in group and know exactly what skills they are running? DPS is the default role and most players never change from that. Yet casual players routinely use taunt skills from ice staves and sword and board and guild skills and Arcanist has a class skill that taunts, etc. Another player in group taunting, maybe even unknowingly, is almost always the reason you can't hold taunt.

code65536 · January 25

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I just couldn't hold aggro long at all, even spamming a taunt (leashing soul).

You couldn't hold aggro because you were NOT using a taunt.

Read the description for Leashing Soul carefully. Pull abilities like Leashing Soul are not "real" taunts; they are "soft" taunts. They only work on untaunted enemies, which means they can't override another taunt, and you can't even use it to refresh your own taunt, soft or otherwise.

Avran_Sylt · January 25

code65536 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I just couldn't hold aggro long at all, even spamming a taunt (leashing soul).

You couldn't hold aggro because you were NOT using a taunt.

Read the description for Leashing Soul carefully. Pull abilities like Leashing Soul are not "real" taunts; they are "soft" taunts. They only work on untaunted enemies, which means they can't override another taunt, and you can't even use it to refresh your own taunt, soft or otherwise.

Hmm, you're right.

And that would explain why there are instances when using it in dungeons where my taunt seemingly was overridden (although that means that a DPS/Healer had a taunt in their kit for some reason).

That is.... Kind of annoying TBH.

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

But then I might then go back to asking: Make player "soft" taunts override companion "hard" taunts. Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

code65536 · January 25

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I just couldn't hold aggro long at all, even spamming a taunt (leashing soul).

You couldn't hold aggro because you were NOT using a taunt.

Read the description for Leashing Soul carefully. Pull abilities like Leashing Soul are not "real" taunts; they are "soft" taunts. They only work on untaunted enemies, which means they can't override another taunt, and you can't even use it to refresh your own taunt, soft or otherwise.

Hmm, you're right.

And that would explain why there are instances when using it in dungeons where my taunt seemingly was overridden (although that means that a DPS/Healer had a taunt in their kit for some reason).

That is.... Kind of annoying TBH.

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

But then I might then go back to asking: Make player "soft" taunts override companion "hard" taunts. Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Pull abilities originally had a hidden ("hidden" in the sense that it was never mentioned in tooltips or communicated to the player) 2s soft taunt. This was then removed. And then restored as a generously full-duration 15s soft taunt.

The main idea behind the soft taunt of pull abilities is to prevent the thing that you chained in to immediately go running off to another target. I.e., it's a QoL feature to make the chaining experience better. It was never intended to be a replacement for an actual taunt, and the intent has always been that tanks would use a real taunt after the pull, if they want to maintain that taunt.

And you have plenty of options for actual taunts: Puncture from sword-and-board, Frost Clench from destro, and Inner Fire from Undaunted.

Taril · January 25

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

It likely stems from the fact that pulls have more use than simply taunting.

Like, non-tanks (Or in Trials, secondary tanks) can use pulls to help reposition enemies without interfering with taunts by using pulls.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Taunt script already exists. Though it's a Focus script, so you can't have a pull that properly taunts.

The only issue is it's limited to only being usable on Shield Toss, Smash and Vault.

I have absolutely no clue why it's usable on Smash and Vault but not on Wield Soul... But that's how it is.

Avran_Sylt · January 25

code65536 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I just couldn't hold aggro long at all, even spamming a taunt (leashing soul).

You couldn't hold aggro because you were NOT using a taunt.

Read the description for Leashing Soul carefully. Pull abilities like Leashing Soul are not "real" taunts; they are "soft" taunts. They only work on untaunted enemies, which means they can't override another taunt, and you can't even use it to refresh your own taunt, soft or otherwise.

Hmm, you're right.

And that would explain why there are instances when using it in dungeons where my taunt seemingly was overridden (although that means that a DPS/Healer had a taunt in their kit for some reason).

That is.... Kind of annoying TBH.

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

But then I might then go back to asking: Make player "soft" taunts override companion "hard" taunts. Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Pull abilities originally had a hidden ("hidden" in the sense that it was never mentioned in tooltips or communicated to the player) 2s soft taunt. This was then removed. And then restored as a generously full-duration 15s soft taunt.

The main idea behind the soft taunt of pull abilities is to prevent the thing that you chained in to immediately go running off to another target. I.e., it's a QoL feature to make the chaining experience better. It was never intended to be a replacement for an actual taunt, and the intent has always been that tanks would use a real taunt after the pull, if they want to maintain that taunt.

And you have plenty of options for actual taunts: Puncture from sword-and-board, Frost Clench from destro, and Inner Fire from Undaunted.

Huh, well if for whatever reason you’d want to make an Oakensoul Tank, that generous 15s taunt allows you to utilize a pull like a taunt

And in the case of Leashing Soul, allow you to have a pull/(soft)taunt/Major Breach all in one skill.

Maybe they should revert the 15s increase to ensure players better understand there’s a difference/can’t use pulls like a taunt?

Avran_Sylt · January 25

Taril wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

It likely stems from the fact that pulls have more use than simply taunting.

Like, non-tanks (Or in Trials, secondary tanks) can use pulls to help reposition enemies without interfering with taunts by using pulls.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Taunt script already exists. Though it's a Focus script, so you can't have a pull that properly taunts.

The only issue is it's limited to only being usable on Shield Toss, Smash and Vault.

I have absolutely no clue why it's usable on Smash and Vault but not on Wield Soul... But that's how it is.

I mean I’ve been using the pull on wield soul like a taunt for almost a month now doing random normals, and rarely ever encountered situations where it felt like anything other than a hard taunt.

Outside of another player/companion overriding it, it feels just like a regular taunt but better (ranged, pull, and having no weapon requirement)

Ph1p · January 30

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

It likely stems from the fact that pulls have more use than simply taunting.

Like, non-tanks (Or in Trials, secondary tanks) can use pulls to help reposition enemies without interfering with taunts by using pulls.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Taunt script already exists. Though it's a Focus script, so you can't have a pull that properly taunts.

The only issue is it's limited to only being usable on Shield Toss, Smash and Vault.

I have absolutely no clue why it's usable on Smash and Vault but not on Wield Soul... But that's how it is.

I mean I’ve been using the pull on wield soul like a taunt for almost a month now doing random normals, and rarely ever encountered situations where it felt like anything other than a hard taunt.

Outside of another player/companion overriding it, it feels just like a regular taunt but better (ranged, pull, and having no weapon requirement)

In content where enemies survive longer than 15 seconds, this can become a liability because it cannot refresh an existing taunt. Especially on bosses, this approach can severely decrease your margin of error when it comes to holding taunt(s) over time.

Avran_Sylt · January 31

Ph1p wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I get why the Sword and Board taunt would need to be the "priority taunt" (Just so there is one, and it fits in the shield being the stereotypical tank), but even from a visual design, the chains seem like they should take priority (and not be a soft), as you're literally trying to pull them, their attention. to you.

It likely stems from the fact that pulls have more use than simply taunting.

Like, non-tanks (Or in Trials, secondary tanks) can use pulls to help reposition enemies without interfering with taunts by using pulls.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Or at the very least turn the taunt effect into a signature script/introduce a taunt signature script. (On single-target abilities). Which I mean actually makes sense, given taunting is "signature" to tanking.

Taunt script already exists. Though it's a Focus script, so you can't have a pull that properly taunts.

The only issue is it's limited to only being usable on Shield Toss, Smash and Vault.

I have absolutely no clue why it's usable on Smash and Vault but not on Wield Soul... But that's how it is.

I mean I’ve been using the pull on wield soul like a taunt for almost a month now doing random normals, and rarely ever encountered situations where it felt like anything other than a hard taunt.

Outside of another player/companion overriding it, it feels just like a regular taunt but better (ranged, pull, and having no weapon requirement)

In content where enemies survive longer than 15 seconds, this can become a liability because it cannot refresh an existing taunt. Especially on bosses, this approach can severely decrease your margin of error when it comes to holding taunt(s) over time.

And possibly be a form of skill expression for those who are willing to try to use it as a main taunt…

Hmm, that would be an interesting take on such a subject.

(Well, not regarding companion hard taunts overriding player soft taunts, no skill expression to be had there apart from annoyance )