"Finite Lives" Ruins 4v4 Deathmatch Every Time

ketsparrowhawk · January 31

Every single 4v4 Deathmatch is ruined by the "Finite Lives" feature.

It always goes like this: Two teams will be somewhat evenly matched. One team will have a weaker player but the other 3 can compensate. That player may die a bit more than the others but it's a good fight overall nonetheless. UNTIL.. that player dies a third time. Then it becomes an absolutely hopeless situation for the team that was already losing. What incentive do the remaining players have to even keep trying (typically they stop trying.. refuse to jump out of spawn after they lose a player permanently.. then we just watch the clock or suffer a deserter penalty)? May as well just end the round as soon as one player runs out of lives. OR even better, make it so that if the team as a whole suffers x number of deaths, the round ends.

It doesn't add any strategy. I put a skull marker on the squishiest target, we farm them til they're out of lives then just walk over the remaining 3 til the game ends. It isn't fun for anybody. It punishes the weaker team for being the weaker team. Match outcomes are determined within the first 30 seconds. I've gotten to the point where if an opposing player runs out of lives, I go hide in a corner so my other 3 teammates can at least still have a fun fair fight. Nobody enjoys roflstomping in an unfair outnumbered fight.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 31

I could see finite lives working with teams of 3 instead of teams of 4, but by the time your group gets to 4 players, any competent gamers^tm will have so much cross buffing and healing going on that the gap between 3 and 4 players is massive.

Comparatively, the gap between 2 and 3 is much less noticeable - it's still very difficult to win a 2v3, but much less of a daunting task then a 3v4.

ketsparrowhawk · January 31

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I could see finite lives working with teams of 3 instead of teams of 4, but by the time your group gets to 4 players, any competent gamers^tm will have so much cross buffing and healing going on that the gap between 3 and 4 players is massive.

Comparatively, the gap between 2 and 3 is much less noticeable - it's still very difficult to win a 2v3, but much less of a daunting task then a 3v4.

A common tactic in GvG fights is to single out one of the DPS and hard focus them relentlessly. This forces that player to play 100% defensive.. so you're effectively removing one of the enemy DPS from the equation. Your healer will have no trouble outhealing just 2 enemy DD's, and it's only a matter of time before the focused target runs out of resources and succumbs to the pressure. You can kind of "force" an outnumbered fight in this way.

Now imagine employing that same tactic when you already have more players than the enemy team.

Thumbless_Bot · January 31

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Every single 4v4 Deathmatch is ruined by the "Finite Lives" feature.

It always goes like this: Two teams will be somewhat evenly matched. One team will have a weaker player but the other 3 can compensate. That player may die a bit more than the others but it's a good fight overall nonetheless. UNTIL.. that player dies a third time. Then it becomes an absolutely hopeless situation for the team that was already losing. What incentive do the remaining players have to even keep trying (typically they stop trying.. refuse to jump out of spawn after they lose a player permanently.. then we just watch the clock or suffer a deserter penalty)? May as well just end the round as soon as one player runs out of lives. OR even better, make it so that if the team as a whole suffers x number of deaths, the round ends.

It doesn't add any strategy. I put a skull marker on the squishiest target, we farm them til they're out of lives then just walk over the remaining 3 til the game ends. It isn't fun for anybody. It punishes the weaker team for being the weaker team. Match outcomes are determined within the first 30 seconds. I've gotten to the point where if an opposing player runs out of lives, I go hide in a corner so my other 3 teammates can at least still have a fun fair fight. Nobody enjoys roflstomping in an unfair outnumbered fight.

Rounds are a bad idea. They make an already unplayable format exasperating-ly worse because of the attrition you mentioned. They inherently create imbalance. Like. That's the point... smh. Completely removes one of the most fun aspects of bgs, the dynamics. Matches are over in 30 seconds. It's horrible.

Rounds are a bad idea. Being stuck in combat between rounds is terrible because you can't react to opponent by changing skills/armor etc.

Rounds are a bad idea. They waste everyone's time waiting in between.

Rounds are a bad idea. People tend to drop when they're out so you start round two with 3 people 9/10 times, because, let's face it, ain't that many people who are gonna hop in and stick around for a massacre...

Rounds are a bad idea. People are dumped into bgs that are basically over just to jump off a cliff into a 2 or 3 v 4 just to get their faces melted. This happens a lot.

Major_Mangle · January 31

I disagree, the finite lives does actually add a tactical/strategic element to it. If you can focus down a key player in the enemy team so they're out of lives it does increase the chances of youe team coming out victorious. Had more than enough BG's (that went to a 3rd round) because each team had to figure out who to focus in the enemy teams and who was getting focused on theirs.

The problem is once again poor matchmaking/mmr that pairs players of vastly different skillevels, not the mode/format design itself.

ketsparrowhawk · January 31

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I disagree, the finite lives does actually add a tactical/strategic element to it. If you can focus down a key player in the enemy team so they're out of lives it does increase the chances of youe team coming out victorious. Had more than enough BG's (that went to a 3rd round) because each team had to figure out who to focus in the enemy teams and who was getting focused on theirs.

The problem is once again poor matchmaking/mmr that pairs players of vastly different skillevels, not the mode/format design itself.

Focusing a "key player" is never even necessary. The squishiest target becomes apparent within seconds. They're the easiest one to eliminate so that's the "key player" you focus so that you can force an outnumbered fight. It's not strategy.. it's how every single 4v4 deathmatch plays out just by matter of course. People naturally target the low healthbar so that's the person who will run out of lives first. What you're talking about may make sense in the group queue but tbh I've not seen any coordinated teams playing on that kind of level since the U44 update.

moo_2021 · February 1

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Focusing a "key player" is never even necessary. The squishiest target becomes apparent within seconds. They're the easiest one to eliminate so that's the "key player" you focus so that you can force an outnumbered fight. It's not strategy.. it's how every single 4v4 deathmatch plays out just by matter of course. People naturally target the low healthbar so that's the person who will run out of lives first. What you're talking about may make sense in the group queue but tbh I've not seen any coordinated teams playing on that kind of level since the U44 update.

I have seen it a few times. Coordinated ulti bombing, debuffs and procs.

Unfortunately the other group is usually 4 new pvpers.

ketsparrowhawk · February 2

moo_2021 wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Focusing a "key player" is never even necessary. The squishiest target becomes apparent within seconds. They're the easiest one to eliminate so that's the "key player" you focus so that you can force an outnumbered fight. It's not strategy.. it's how every single 4v4 deathmatch plays out just by matter of course. People naturally target the low healthbar so that's the person who will run out of lives first. What you're talking about may make sense in the group queue but tbh I've not seen any coordinated teams playing on that kind of level since the U44 update.

I have seen it a few times. Coordinated ulti bombing, debuffs and procs.

Unfortunately the other group is usually 4 new pvpers.

That is normal ordinary group pvp. Coordinated groups play that way whether finite-lives are a thing or not. In 4v4 Deathmatch, this results in the squishiest player dying 3 times right away leaving an unfair fight the rest of the match for the team that was already disadvantaged.

Most organized groups aren't interested in an outnumbered fight. In GvG events the fight ends as soon as ONE player dies because what's the point after that? Winning 4v3 doesn't prove anything.

Decimus · February 2

In solo queue not only should the lives be limited to one, but they should also increase rounds to 8 and shuffle teams in between (so everyone gets to rotate). This fixes matchmaking issues making the experience more balanced and rewards good solo performance better when points/rewards are distributed based on how many rounds were won.

No more lobby RNG.

For group queue I'd also limit the deaths to one per round - as mentioned, most people interested in GvGs aren't interested in 4v3'ing (or 3v4'ing) people for ages after the squishy in the group gets focused down.

ketsparrowhawk · February 2

Decimus wrote: »

In solo queue not only should the lives be limited to one, but they should also increase rounds to 8 and shuffle teams in between (so everyone gets to rotate). This fixes matchmaking issues making the experience more balanced and rewards good solo performance better when points/rewards are distributed based on how many rounds were won.

No more lobby RNG.

For group queue I'd also limit the deaths to one per round - as mentioned, most people interested in GvGs aren't interested in 4v3'ing (or 3v4'ing) people for ages after the squishy in the group gets focused down.

Omg yessss I would love a shuffle!!

ketsparrowhawk · February 11

Just experienced this again. Could have been a decent fight but as soon as it became outnumbered everyone gave up dropped out of the match. Please remove this "feature"

Tommy_The_Gun · February 11

Good to know that there is even something like this. I was not even aware that I can end up in BGs with limited amount of respawns. Another reason to avoid BGs completely - even if that means losing daily endeavours or not getting a mythic lead etc.

ketsparrowhawk · February 11

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Good to know that there is even something like this. I was not even aware that I can end up in BGs with limited amount of respawns. Another reason to avoid BGs completely - even if that means losing daily endeavours or not getting a mythic lead etc.

only 4v4 Deathmatch. If you do BG's I strongly recommend sticking to the 8v8 queue.

ketsparrowhawk · April 28

Just had to drop out of another hopeless 4v4 deathmatch because one teammate ran out of lives, causing another teammate to drop out of the match, leaving a 2v4 in what was already a hopeless matchup from the start. What a terrible experience 4v4 Deathmatch is every single time, whichever side of it you're on. Pls fix.

xylena_lazarow · April 28

Without robust MMR, random 4v4 solo is unfeasible. One weak player in such a sweaty format, and the whole match is a trash fire. This format should be scrapped until we have the MMR system and queue population to support it. The 8v8 solo is a far better format for random play and works across skill levels, it should be the default top of the menu.

ketsparrowhawk · April 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Without robust MMR, random 4v4 solo is unfeasible. One weak player in such a sweaty format, and the whole match is a trash fire. This format should be scrapped until we have the MMR system and queue population to support it. The 8v8 solo is a far better format for random play and works across skill levels, it should be the default top of the menu.

I agree wholeheartedly. However 4v4 Deathmatch in particular is exceptionally terrible due to the finite lives "feature".

ketsparrowhawk · April 29

Just had another 4v4 Deathmatch. It was a pretty good matchup.. some of my guildmates on both teams. Was a pretty good close fight for a few minutes until, of course, someone on the enemy team ran out of lives. From that point forward they had zero chance. I ended up sheathing my weapon and standing back so they could at least have a good 3v3.

Solariken · April 29

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Without robust MMR, random 4v4 solo is unfeasible. One weak player in such a sweaty format, and the whole match is a trash fire. This format should be scrapped until we have the MMR system and queue population to support it. The 8v8 solo is a far better format for random play and works across skill levels, it should be the default top of the menu.

Honestly yeah just one ranked solo queue would be the best fit for the game in its current state.

Maybe keep 4v4 in the mix for low population times so people can still get in to play when there aren't enough people queuing.

NoSoup · April 30

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Without robust MMR, random 4v4 solo is unfeasible. One weak player in such a sweaty format, and the whole match is a trash fire. This format should be scrapped until we have the MMR system and queue population to support it. The 8v8 solo is a far better format for random play and works across skill levels, it should be the default top of the menu.

I agree wholeheartedly. However 4v4 Deathmatch in particular is exceptionally terrible due to the finite lives "feature".

Problem with infinite lives is the abuse it could allow by Toxic players. There's already a high frequency of toxic play styles in 4x4 (never leaving spawn, never getting on flags during domination/crazy king, afk'ing, not respawning and making both teams wait out the deathmatch timer), you would 100% have players joining that just run in, intentally die, respawn and run in to die again to tank a team's chances.

ketsparrowhawk · May 1

NoSoup wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Without robust MMR, random 4v4 solo is unfeasible. One weak player in such a sweaty format, and the whole match is a trash fire. This format should be scrapped until we have the MMR system and queue population to support it. The 8v8 solo is a far better format for random play and works across skill levels, it should be the default top of the menu.

I agree wholeheartedly. However 4v4 Deathmatch in particular is exceptionally terrible due to the finite lives "feature".

Problem with infinite lives is the abuse it could allow by Toxic players. There's already a high frequency of toxic play styles in 4x4 (never leaving spawn, never getting on flags during domination/crazy king, afk'ing, not respawning and making both teams wait out the deathmatch timer), you would 100% have players joining that just run in, intentally die, respawn and run in to die again to tank a team's chances.

Crazy because that was never a serious issue before finite lives were implemented. Also someone could do that more effectively now because all they have to do is die three times and then their team is super screwed because now they're out numbered

AngryNecro · May 1

I don't want the three-life mode to be removed. But I also want a DM mode with no restrictions.

Thumbless_Bot · May 1

AngryNecro wrote: »

I don't want the three-life mode to be removed. But I also want a DM mode with no restrictions.

Agree. No reason to remove a functioning part of the game that some people enjoy.

ceruulean · May 3

Actually, yeah I think a team-wide vitality limit (like PvE trials) or the 8v8 deathmatch scoring system would be better.

ketsparrowhawk · May 3

If the team as a whole had finite lives that would be much better than the current situation. If the team as a whole suffers X number of deaths the round ends.. that would probably work fine

Thumbless_Bot · May 4

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

If the team as a whole had finite lives that would be much better than the current situation. If the team as a whole suffers X number of deaths the round ends.. that would probably work fine

500/45

ketsparrowhawk · May 4

Just had another terrible 4v4 Deathmatch. 2 of my teammates ran out of lives, leaving a 2v4 for the rest of the round. As you can imagine it was a hopeless battle being out numbered 2-to-1. So my one remaining teammate just stopped trying (who can blame them?) and fed the other team his 3 lives, leaving me to just run laps around the map to run the timer out, which is no fun for anyone. Terrible experience every single time.

Iriidius · May 7

Should give 50 points for kill so you have to kill only 10 times ending only 10 lifes instead of all 12.
1 player with 2 lifes or 2 players with 1 life should not have to jump down into full 4 man group waiting to 4v1 them when by dying they already show they cant win 1v4 or 2v4 or even 4v4 nor should they be able to let everyone wait for the rest of 5 minutes (willingly to troll or unwillingly because thy dont want engage 1v4) by staying in base.

It is really a bad joke if every of your teammates dies 3 times nearly instantly (despite healing them) before the full enemy teams 4v1 you and after that you still have to jump in 2 other times to get 4v1ed by griefers and cant refuse these lives not even by killing yourself as there is nothing to kill yourself with.

You can try jumping out of argonian map into kill zone before they get you or jump from colosseum stairs after reducing your hp with hp cost skills as otherwise falldmg will regenerate before you can get up the stairs again to deny them their 4v1 kill but if that doesnt work they get what they want.

ketsparrowhawk · May 7

Just had another terrible 4v4 Deathmatch. 2 of my teammates could hardly stand on their own two feet.. lost all 3 of their lives as fast as they could respawn. Leaving me and one other teammate to fight a 2v4 for the rest of the round, which of course was a hopeless battle. We ended up just sheathing our weapons and feeding the rest of our lives to get it over with. I tried to adjust my build for the second round but it made no difference.. played out the exact same way. Deathmatch used to be my favorite mode but in 4v4 now it's my least favorite.